draconarc:

If you understand how empathy can be weaponised against someone or can be harmful, you should understand why some disorders have the symptom of lacking empathy.

Abusers weaponising your empathy to make you feel awful, to make you feel trapped and like you’ve done wrong and should be punished

Abusers who use their own empathy to make your own problems about them, to strip you of your own power and to make you feel like your problems aren’t worth talking about.

Tradgedies where empathy causes extreme pain or adds onto a traumatic event and makes it much worse

These things result in a lack of empathy being a coping mechanism. Not emotionally feeling what others are feeling is a way we’ve protected ourselves against abuse and trauma.

NPD and ASPD never was about abusing people, it’s about protecting a self who’s been permanently traumatised.

Corollary: too much empathy can also traumatize a person into a low-empathy disorder. When you have enough powerful empathy for all the suffering going on, the whole world is your abuser.

mentalisttraceur:

I hate that I have to live in a world where most people are more evil than me.

Surrounded by bad people who keep getting away with being bad and not even being self-aware of their badness because they have too many equally bad people to back them up.

Kinda traumatic, honestly.

Although by now I have learned to appreciate this suffering. As the crucible of hurt closes in on me, as I feel that familiar crushing oppressive emotional burn, I start to remember that the version of me that comes out of that fire is always stronger, always more sharp and hard yet more versatile and able to bend as needed.

A really good test of whether or not humanity is better than I realize or is becoming better than this faster than I think it is, would be to look at where the public discourse around the recent “#karen” event went in the last couple of days, and if it was better or more mature or kind and compassionate than I expected.

But I feel a lot of aversion to it up. What I saw people saying about it two evenings ago was bad enough for me to go spew this condemnation of humanity on here, and it was bad enough that I was in an acutely triggered fight-ready state basically that whole evening.

I thought about checking this morning and I was briefly back there again. Hating and wanting to lash out at people for their lack of compassion, lack of nuance, ignorance, lack of critical self-review and self-awareness, the gall to feel moral and righteous despite those things, and so on. Work and then writing my bullshit thoughts distracted me. Were it not for that I might have been in a worse state much longer.

The only thing that gives me optimism is the quiet. I haven’t heard anything else about it. If it was controversial enough I’d expect it to reach me by now. But there is a worse alternative. It’s not controversial, and consensus is on the wrong side.

Mind-like

I’m starting to think more in terms of just cognition/experiencing and less in terms of minds, because:

  1. Cognition/experiencing is more fundamental than minds. Mind interferometry starts not with other things having minds, but with other things having cognition/experiencing. Minds are only then inferred to exist in, or are used to model and predict, things which seem to persistently have some sort of cognition/experiencing that matters.
  2. It does not take much to justify the idea that all cognition is potentially experiencing. At first the only cognition we know of is just our experience stream. The first reason we have to suspect minds in other things is when we realize their behavior is consistent with how we would act if we were experiencing their situation.
  3. It is a lot harder to rigorously justify or even define any notion of minds. What mind interferometry evidence must a thing exhibit? What cognition/experiences must it have? How long? How often? How consistently? How coherently? In what combinations? At what speeds and time scales?
  4. It is hard to draw the boundaries of minds. Mind interferometry tells us that cognition/experiencing happened somewhere within the thing. But where exactly in the thing is the mind? Is it even just one mind? Is it part of a bigger mind? If cutting off a part causes only a tiny reduction or change of cognition/experiencing, was some of the mind in there?

Putting cognition/experiencing first kinda reveals that the whole idea of minds was a distraction anyway. Philosophically, legally, psychologically, and especially ethically. “Mind” is a heuristic, a summary, a pattern that things match more or less. To the extent that anything is best explained by having cognition/experiencing, it is mind-like.

It does not matter if something is a “mind”. What matters in any given situation or question is if mind interferometry suggests something has or can have any relevant cognition/experiences.

So how do we find out what to fill ethics with

Anonymous

TL;DR: Keep working to understand minds better, and care about them enough for that understanding to inform your decisions. Keep getting better at thinking and doing. Keep working to own and fix your flaws and problems. These efforts will gradually reveal more and more things as not ethical. What remains is the best approximation of ethics you can have, so far.

Long answer:

My philosophical foundation for ethics is summarized in my “From First Principles” post. A couple relevant elaborations and responses to typical objections to those ideas can be found at:

Sadly some other relevant clarifications and additions are scattered across my thousands of posts. They should mostly or entirely be tagged with the relevant tags though.

Of course, this only takes care of the more philosophically challenging part of justifying the existence of a likely external reality and other minds. I have not written up concise posts for all the steps beyond that. I think the broad strokes are intuitive enough from there, not enough to be rigorous but to take whatever seems obvious from there and run with it. I think I wrote a couple posts exploring what I call “the first value judgement, but basically:

  1. On the one extreme, once mind interferometry lets you see that other minds seem to exist with roughly comparable experiences, you can decide that it is arbitrary to a priori value any mind over any other, and so you give all minds and their experiences equal ethical weight based on the empirical observation that they are all roughly the same kind of thing.
  2. On the other extreme, you have unapologetic selfishness, based on the empirical observation that you only experience your experiences, so everyone else is a different kind of thing than you. Even when evidence is pretty strong that we are all having experiences, it kinda requires a motivated axiomatic leap to say "experiences which I never experience should be given as much weight as my experiences”.
  3. A third extreme is self-excluding altruism - just like the second and unlike the first, this is rooted in the empirical difference between the self and all others, but here the focus is flipped - the axiomatic choice is made the other way: the strange singular experiencer gets special insignificance, its experiences not factored in as much or at all.
  4. Obviously you can make this initial axiomatic choice by putting the boundary somewhere other than just self/others, or even by putting down multiple boundaries or a gradient for how different minds are weighed.

What’s cool is that you can see every one of these in different humans’ moral intuitions, which is very validating of all my bullshit up to this point because it all fits - that’s exactly what you’d expect if I’m right about how human brains empirically struggle their way through something like the progression from raw experiences which I outline in “From First Principles”, but with distortions and errors added in by personal and circumstantial variation and the need to do it with naturally selected heuristics more efficiently within the constraints we have or had in our life or in our ancestral environment.

What’s even cooler is that for several years now I keep realizing that each of these must converge onto the same ethics as you integrate the future and factor in the constraints that we are subject to and all the messy stuff in life, so I don’t think which of the above choices you make changes the ultimate destination as much as it changes your initial naive ethically clumsy fumbling until you mature. Like, you’ll make different mistakes and need different epiphanies along the way, or some of the same ones in different order, and you might have different dead-end branches of ethical development you might go into for a while, but I think there is something inevitable about being forced towards the direction of a certain natural ethics. The caveat is that many people don’t seem to get nearly the large enough range of experiences for get very far with that progress, and it is progress which has a ceiling based on your mental abilities and how much you put in the work. Which also includes things like growing coping skill and healing your traumas and insecurities and so on (otherwise certain things are more unbearable than others, and this naturally distorts our ethics.)

To be clear, I think you can grow all of the relevant abilities. I don’t like the idea of there being some biological predestined cap on how far you can develop your ethics. It’s just that it takes time and effort which is not very rewarded or supported or subsidized socially. I have the privilege of having the time and energy to think about this bullshit pretty much all the time, and thus to keep training the thinking “muscles” almost as a side-effect. I had the privilege of being raised by smart and fairly mature and compassionate people who kinda managed to cause or force me to develop certain mental skills. So even though I think wisdom and pragmaticism and uncertainty seem to combine to create pressures for ethics to look a certain way, because they tend to make lots of choices worse than other choices regardless of your base values, I think in practice at any given moment we’re all capped in one way or another from seeing all those considerations all the way to the end, or even far enough to see if it’s going to be a false or dead-end path.

I also haven’t written anything substantial from the “cutting edge” of my own ethics development. Basically I no longer see minds as indivisible fundamental entities within ethics - minds are more like pools or rivers or oceans or currents of cognition, or more relevantly to ethics, of possible experiencing. But it doesn’t really change much except at the philosophical foundations and maybe some edge cases where more conventional ethics break down. I think it might turn out to elegantly eliminate the need for “the first value judgement”, and other than that it just adds a bit more nuance here and there when considering questions of personhood and manipulation and autonomy.

Lying to be Truthful

To be maximally honest, you get good at noticing when bits of truth may be lost omission or inattention, or when errors may slip in on ambiguity or misinterpretation. Of course, this includes all sorts of things beyond just the meaning of your words, and this is complicated by how in the real world we must always work with many possible truths, which are more or less likely based on the evidence we have so far.

Saying something hesitantly or with the wrong body language risks making it seem less likely - to many brains, confidence communicates probability more viscerally, more believably, than any wording of it does. Due to speech linearity, mentioning any possibility risks overly emphasizing it - you can think more possibilities at once, but you can only speak one possibility description at a time. Talk too much and people tune out, so there is a cap on how much of the truth you can get in. And so on.

So eventually, you will run into a situation where your only options are different “lies”. A little piece of wrong impression here buys you a little more truth there. You can have this truth or that truth, this risk of error or that risk of error. This is a logical inevitability of the constraints we face.

Lying

The thing with “lying” and “honesty” and all the adjacent words is that the only logical extreme is conveying the full truth as you know it and nothing else. Any deviation from that extreme in is either omitting true bits or adding false bits. And lying by omission is still lying. So we can’t distinguish offsets from the total honesty extreme as lying versus something without external factors, the most obvious being intent.

But regardless of any such external factors, the above is the foundation upon which the rest of the judgement must depend. And the word “lying” is a perfectly fine word for any intentional deviation from that extreme which is bad enough, because the ethically relevant parts are how close to the truth a mind is, the consequences of them being in that position, and how you affected or intended to affect that position.

abhumanaex0:

abhumanaex0:

therapist: *asks a question*

me: okay so to answer the question i think you’re wanting the answer to, $stuff, but i can’t know the answer to the question you actually asked because $reasons

him: no don’t answer what you think i want, answer what i asked

me: i’m not giving the answer i think you want, i’m answering the question i think you’re trying to ask

him: no no answer the question i asked

me: that question is unanswerable because *gestures* [$reasons further and more emphatically explained]

him: are you being defensive

me: *stares into the camera*

i could probably have left the rest off and just given the answer he was probably looking for.

but…

What a well-timed example of a situation where “lying to be truthful” is appropriate (or at least the concept is appropriate, so we can actually talk about whether or not doing it is appropriate).

The initial wording was seemingly chosen to be maximally proactively truthful. The other party seems to have misinterpreted it, and that first impression seems to have “latched” their mind into a state less compatible with correctly interpreting your consequent efforts to keep being maximally truthful.

The way to more success at getting truth from your mind to theirs was to say something that a sufficiently discerning mind could rightly flag as deliberately less honest, technically. Either

  1. you just say the answer to the question you think they want answered, willfully omitting proactively sharing that you went from from face value question to inferred wanted question,
  2. you just say “I can’t answer that because [reasons]”, willfully omitting proactively sharing the answer you inferred they actually wanted, or even that you inferred it at all, or
  3. you just ask “so you’re asking [inferred question]?”, willfully crafting a misleadingly reduced impression of what you understood.

You can also preemptively defensively shield your presentation of the inferred question with words like “okay, so putting your question in my own words to make sure I understood it: [inferred question]? [answer]”, which is even more willfully misleading at face value and yet even more robust against doing the worse initial misleading that happened.

This is also another opportunity to examine what I said on manipulation - in order to do any of the above, you have to get manipulative. You must no longer turn the truth in your mind into the absolute closest wording (which a sufficiently ideally-interpreting mind would most efficiently interpret correctly). You must turn the truth into one or more effects which have objectively the best forecast of getting the interpreting mind to the truth. You may need to hide your intention to do the latter and make it seem like you are only doing the former to successfully do the latter. That is exactly mechanically the same as being conventionally manipulative, the only difference is that the intention is to be as honest as possible.

cthulhubert:

watsonshoneybee:

the thing about everything is that it all gets easier with practice, so be careful what you practice 

#what does this mean exactly

doing “negative” things, things I don’t want to be good at, still makes me better at them

being judgmental, jumping to conclusions, procrastinating, self-harm; all things that get easier the more often I do them

Of course, sometimes “negative” things are necessary, but even when they are, I don’t want them to be easy

So a Karen had a crying breakdown, after (not?) trying to hit black woman.

Ideally I just wouldn’t have to see or engage in this discourse, but if I can preempt even one bad take on this, it’s worth it.

So I wrote a long post.

bogleech:

image

for people who still dont realize this, for all we know people have in fact discovered time travel but they also didn’t realize this

bearing also in mind that the entire solar system itself is always flying through space!!

The mature response: silent approving reblog.

My response: feel very personally offended that more people do not realize this on their own.